A PASTOR DEFENDS HIS RIGHTS

                                            LIBERTY BAPTIST TABERNACLE

              

SENIOR PASTOR WAYNE WILLIAMS

Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, lawyer, and minister, has continued to spew opposition to my First Amendment rights!  I have sat by silently as he and his organization have continued their attack articles against me and my church. The time has come for me to exercise my constitutional rights in response to Mr. Lynn.

Churches existed in the USA long before Mr. Lynn came along.  They were exempt as churches from government taxation because they were churches, not because they were granted special privileges by the IRS.

The First Amendment was drafted to protect the rights of churches (religious establishments). “Congress shall make NO law” restricts giving power to the state over the church. The issue of who was over whom was settled with the First Amendment language – “NO LAW”. What law does Mr. Lynn claim I broke by exercising my free speech rights?  If Congress has passed a law giving the IRS some kind of power over the church, that law was unconstitutional from the time it was passed, because it was a law! The First Amendment says “Congress shall make NO LAW”! Randy Rasmussen was correct to declare the IRS rule unconstitutional!  Why has Barry W. Lynn not addressed this matter properly? Does he want his readers to be as ignorant of the First Amendment church rights as he seems to be himself? 

Mr. Lynn needs to take a good long look at South Dakota’s State Motto. It was adopted in 1889, ninety-eight years after the Bill of Rights of 1791. It reads: “Under God the people rule.”  It means that God is ABOVE the people and the state. “The people” are the same as “We the people” who created the state’s government. The people still exist, and God still exists. God is the giver of life and liberty now, just as He was in 1776. The “people” who created the state cannot rule OVER God! Their only place is UNDER God! Mr. Lynn believes we are under the state and that tax exempt status is a privilege granted to churches by the state, with conditions attached, thus placing the church UNDER the state. But I know, as did the people of the great state of South Dakota when they drafted the state motto that God is OVER the people, not UNDER them!  Benjamin Franklin knew this fact when helping to draft the US Constitution. He said that he had learned over his long life that “God governs in the affairs of men.”

Let the pledge to our honored and revered national flag make the case even stronger: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation UNDER God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Some who reject that God has any place in government have tried to remove “under God” from the pledge. Makes one wonder why!  Has Mr. Lynn been involved in that effort? Just wondering since he wants to place the church under the state.

God’s Son, Jesus the Christ, started the church. The state did not!  He said, “Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Why does Mr. Lynn, being a clergyman, want to put Jesus Christ’s church under the state’s taxing powers?  South Dakota’s State Constitution, Article XI, Section 6, dealing with taxes, exempts churches from property taxes. Our church has been exempt from its beginning. Does Mr. Lynn plan to move the IRS to take away from us this tax exemption? Not likely! He wants the IRS to make us pay income taxes as a church ministry. How does government tax God? They would have to use the tithe money which is the main source of revenue for a church.

The church is a fixed entity, but the government is not! Let us not forget what our Declaration of Independence states: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” Governments are created to secure God-given and unalienable Rights which God has given to the people. When government ceases to protect these Rights, it has lost it purpose for existing. If government will not protect our God-given Rights, then “we the people” must step forward to protect them. This is the main reason certain citizens would not approve the new Constitution without the protection of a Bill of Rights! 

Barry W. Lynn needs to know that if I had lived in the days of Baptists Isaac Backus and John Leland, I would have joined them to insist on a Bill of Rights, especially to protect Religious Liberties from a government power grab, or a power grab by any civil organization such as Americans United. This is my time to live and work, and I will fight, even unto my death, to protect Religious Liberties from anyone who tries to take them away! And I do mean anyone! Mr. Lynn and his organization have chosen to try to take away my God-given Religious Liberties. It is time for him to check history to find out how Baptists feel about their God-given rights and responsibilities. We have always taken them very seriously! I advise Mr. Lynn to take a different course with regards to my God-given religious liberties! He may harass and threaten me with the IRS, but HE WILL NOT TAKE AWAY MY GOD-GIVEN UNALIENABLE RELIGIOUS LIBERTIES! 

 Pastor Wayne Williams-Rapid City, SD

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  55. Independent
    October 4, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    Bob,
    It must be tough to live in this world believing everyone but those who think like you and worship like you are plotting against you, trying to steal your religious convictions. Is your faith really that fragile,? Do you really need to conjure up thing like “satan,” deciever,” and master deceiver” to protect yourself?

    Are you aware your approach to religion is more than likely a personal quest to assign some divinity not only to mankind, but to yourself? How’d the “silent majority” do voting against President Barack Obama?

  56. October 4, 2010 at 7:06 am

    It’s rather hard to have a meaningful conversation with someone who doesn’t have the least shred of interest in the truth. So I won’t waste my time by providing lengthy explanations of why you are so sadly wrong; my time would be better spent talking to a fence post.

    On the off chance that you might privately have some interest in the truth that you cannot display publicly, I’ll suggest you read this regarding the “secular” Constitution: http://www.dakotavoice.com/2007/07/the-us-constitution-not-so-secular/

    And know this: I will not tolerate the religion of secularism being imposed on me, my family, my society, or my government. The founders made it clear when they crafted our nation and our way of life that without the influence of the Christian religion they cherished, our nation would not survive. You may be okay with destroying this great country by eradicating its foundation, but I will fight for it with my last breath.

    • Independent
      October 4, 2010 at 11:17 am

      Bob,
      Good for you, fight on if you must. You are a member of a distinct minority of Americans who are incapable of separating politics and religion, and you are losing ground every day, in both the eyes of your fellow man and Gods. Thank God for that.

      • October 4, 2010 at 5:40 pm

        Actually I’m not in a minority, but a mostly silent majority. Even if I were in a minority, the Constitution still protects religious freedom and religious expression, and since your socialist friends have turned the heat up in the past two years, Americans are finding their voices again. Soon, we’ll be re-asserting our full religious liberties and begin pushing back your secularist attack on our nation’s heritage and foundation.

        If you were a friend of God, you would be thankful for that.

        • Independent
          October 5, 2010 at 10:20 pm

          Bob,
          How did the “silent majority” do voting for Howie in the S.D. gubernatorial primary? Or how about McCain vs Obama?

          No offense, but in reality you’re a member of the “mute minority.” It is as the Founder’s intended.

          • October 6, 2010 at 1:11 pm

            Were it not for the hit-job on Gordon’s tax payment difficulties by the “mainstream” media and others on the Left, I believe he would have done very well.

            McCain-Obama is a better but still different comparison. McCain was a few shades less bad than Obama, and many conservatives are too principled to vote for a RINO of his caliber on a national scale. Even those like me who held our noses for the lesser of two evils find it virtually impossible to generate enthusiasm or support for liberal-lite.

            The more we reject the Founders wisdom which called for Christian values to underpin our nation, the more we attack the basis of our own freedoms. Plenty are blind enough to do this (you are proof), but refreshing numbers of Americans have stood up in the past 21 months to call for a return to American values. That gives me great hope for the future.

  57. Independent
    October 1, 2010 at 10:33 pm

    Bob,
    You make me laugh. Because you already explained it is correct? That’s truly funny. The statement in the Treaty means exactly what it says, as intended by our Founder’s. Our country was in no way shape or form founded on the Christian religion. That many of the Founder’s were Christians is of no consequence. They were careful not to let their personal faith unduly influence their greatest achievements.

    You ignored the most controversial statement Jefferson ever wrote about Christianity. I’ll repeat it for you: “The day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” How can you interpret this to mean anything other than what it says? Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the virgin birth of Christ, he believed it is a fable. You pass over this obvious blasphemy again and again. You may choose to ignore it, but the author of the Declaration of Independence did not believe the virgin birth of Jesus Christ occurred. He thought it was a fairy tale, a myth. As a fundamentalist Christian who believes Christianity should be practiced publicly, including in our government, can you explain this to me Bob?

    And what of my questions to you regarding the fact God is left out of the Constitution, and that Jesus and Christianity are not mentioned in either the Declaration or the Constitution? If our Founder’s intended that public worship or state sanctioned worship involving Christianity was their intent, then why did they omit any reference to it?

    As for the rest of your post, the leap of faith you ask us all to take, that your statements about Christianity are somehow to be considered fact, is one myself and the majority of the populace prefers not to take. You have faith, but no facts. Your Bible is about faith, not fact.

    If you, or Ed or Gordon were charged with writing the Declaration and the Constitution, is there any doubt both would be fraught with references to both Jesus and God? If you answer anything other than a resounding “yes,” I suspect you are being completely disingenuous. You claim the Founders thought like you, but they did not act or write like you, or create a nation and it’s government like you would have. They left religion out of both documents, regardless of their personal religious beliefs, because they are irrelevant. The work, the writing, the founding documents are what matters. They were men of vision, and they could see the strife public services and governmentally sponsored religion would cause. I do not want to limit religious activities any more or less than our Founders did. Neither does our Supreme Court and current government. For some reason fundamentalists are driven to extremes and feel compelled to have every facet of their lives, including politics dominated by religion. I seriously suspect there is an adverse psychological condition involved, which may one day be identified. It’s not as destructive as a cult compulsion, but it apparently interferes somewhat with normal function and day to day living. I’ve spoken with mainstream Rabbis, Priests, Pastors and Ministers over the years and the lion’s share of them have no problem admitting there is a possibility they’re faith is not entirely right, and others are entirely wrong. And they to a man have respect for the religious beliefs of others. This is not true of fundamentalist and evangelist men of the cloth. Their minds are closed off to the rest of the world and the beauty and grace other religions might offer.

    At any rate, if you are to ever progress and become a mature Christian, you will first have to acknowledge there is no absolute right or wrong in religious matters and convictions. It’s about the faith, not the right or wrong because nothing in your Bible or my Tanakh or the book of Mormon or any religious text can be proven to be the direct or definitive word of God. Do you actually believe there are millions and millions of people who are “wrong” or less enlightened than you are, when it comes to religious calling, and you and those who have beliefs which are similar to yours are “right?” If you actually believe there is only one path, how convenient and self-serving that you just happen to be on it.

    Don’t’ ever change Bob. Just as your God needs your satan, because there can be no good without evil, the world needs people like you to serve as an example of just how out of sorts the world will become if religious extremism is allowed to flourish and becomes the law of the land. Our Founders knew, and that’s why they acted as they did, and that’s why we have the Establishment Clause. Practice in private all you want. Pray 24/7 and tithe 35% if you must. Spend every waking moment in your church if you’d like. But try impose your religion on my public peace and government, my right to chose when, where, and what, and you’ve got a fight on your hands.

    One thought, about the Jews. Monotheism Bob, one God, no other God’s before Him. Jesus as “God,” the Trinity, it amounts to worshipping more than one God. Read “Why the Jews Rejected Jesus,” by David Klinghoffer. You might look on Jews in an entirely different light, if you have the conviction and faith to read something you know might change the way you look at something involving religion. Doesn’t it make more sense to learn the truth, as opposed to going through life assuming you know something about why the people and religion upon which your religion is based rejected your Messiah? It should be required reading for all Christians, so you may understand the rigorous process involved in staying true to the original word, ancient beliefs and un-compromising faith the Jewish people have in the God of Abraham.

    The fact you are compelled to state your path is the only one indicates you’re faith isn’t what it should be. I readily admit I may be “wrong.” It doesn’t matter, it’s my faith. If you can’t acknowledge you may be “wrong,” you have no true faith.

  58. Independent
    September 30, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    Bob,

    The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states we are not a “Christian nation,” and that our government was in no way founded on Christianity. And I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but Consitutional Law has been and will correctly continue to evolve to meet our needs, as the Founder’s intended, in the same way “The laws of Nature and Nature’s God” have provided the process of evolution in nature, to ensure the survial of species.

    God bless.

    • October 1, 2010 at 7:11 am

      Again you are sorely mistaken, or are again attempting to deceive people. I already explained to you the nature of the statement in the Treaty of Tripoli, that our government was trying to convey to the Islamic nations that we are not a theocracy and had no official religious quarrel with their theocratic Islamic governments. Why do you pretend you have not been exposed to this information?

      I’m pretty sure I also referenced the works of Sir William Blackstone to you which reveal the fallacy of your claim that “The laws of Nature and Nature’s God” referred to some evolutionary doctrine (that wasn’t even formulated yet); rather, this is how the people of that time referred to that universal moral code that God has imprinted on his universe and has built into the heart of every human being.

      Stop kicking against the goads and accept the truth.

  59. Independent
    September 30, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Bob,
    I can’t help notice you always ignore the fact Thomas Jefferson penned his own version of the New Testament, removing all mention of the Trinity, miracles or the divinity of Jesus Christ. Why is that? Jefferson also wrote: “The day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Obviously you are free to choose the writings of Jefferson you are going to lend most credence to, but why won’t you ever comment on these particular writings?

    Your entire argument depends on your presumption the Founder’s were incapable of accurately expressing their intentions regarding religion and government in either the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. You have erroneously and through personal religious conviction presumed they intended that religion, specifically Christianity be included in the governmental processes of the new nation. Our Constitution makes no mention what so ever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton’s flippant responses when asked about it. According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of “foreign aid”; according to another, he simply said “we forgot.” The Declaration of Independence mentions “The laws of Nature and Nature’s God,” and” Creator.” Neither is an endorsement of any particular faith or religious dogma, including Christianity or Judaism, by any stretch of the imagination. The Founders were articulate men, endowed with writing skills enabling them to be quite clear in their intentions concerning religion and their new government, and they chose to omit it, preferring to privide the means for us all to worship individually as we see fit, free from government interference or compulsion.
    I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts as to why they completely omitted any reference to Jesus Christ in the two most important documents they ever authored.

    Now, do not misconstrue my thoughts as being “anti-Christian” or “anti-religious” in nature, for I have stated nothing of the sort. And do not allege my intentions are to somehow change your mind, or lead you away from your own personal religious convictions. I am simply following my own religious convictions. We are all free to worship as we see fit, to follow our calling. God does not need the blessing of our government, the Israeli government or any government before He proceeds with His work. We as men living in this nation are charged with continuing enforcement of the Establishment Clause, and again the Founders writings need no translation. They founded our country with two brilliant documents, neither of which contains any instruction that religion be an intergral part of government, nor shall it be compelled by any governmental function.

    The vast majority of Constitutional scholars and the American populace believe in the separation of church and state, not the removal of religion from private life, but rather no public endorsement of any particular form of religion, hence the Jeffersonian “Wall of Separation between church and state.” The premise one must choose between religion or government, secular or religious is a false one. We must keep government and religion separate in order to avoid the conflict and inevitable violence the combining of the two will bring.

    God bless you Bob.

    • October 1, 2010 at 7:08 am

      I haven’t “ignored the fact” of Jefferson’s Bible revision; it just doesn’t have the relevance you think it does.

      Anyone who knows anything about Jefferson knows he could be an odd bird, and that he was one of the least religious of the Founders, and that there is a very good chance that he wasn’t a genuine Christian.

      Nevertheless, he did have a firm intellectual grasp of and appreciation for Christian Biblical principles. This shows in everything from his acknowledgement in our founding document that all liberty comes from our Creator–not government–all the way to the church services he regularly attended inside the U.S. Capitol Building.

      As I said, the authenticity of his born-again conversion is questionable, Jefferson himself said he was a Christian:

      I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.

      And

      I am a real Christian–that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.

      As for Jefferson’s Biblical revision, he himself tells us it was intended to be a rather basic introduction of Christian morality to the Native Americans that he wanted to reach with Christianity:

      “The philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth extracted from the… New Testament… for the use of
      the Indians… [at] the level of their comprehension”

      No, our Founders did not want a theocracy. They did not want a church-run state or a state-run church. Nor did they want a government devoid of and divorced from the Christian principles upon which it was based.

      You continually seek to cloister Christian expression from the public square, you repeatedly distort and deceive about the Bible and Christianity, and you elevate false religions to an equal plane with Christianity. Any reasonable person would conclude that you are opposed to Christianity and the open expression of Christianity. Your words and actions speak for themselves.

      For you to insist otherwise is to ask me to not believe my eyes, but to believe you–when you have a well-established track record of promoting falsehood and deception. Sorry, but I’m just not that gullible.

  60. Independent
    September 30, 2010 at 8:45 am

    Gordon,
    I never said I posess anything, certainly not the truth. No man knows the “truth” about which form of worship it “true.” As an example, the most powerful and influential Christian denomination in the world openly states the others are not the “true” church of Christ. The Pope himself believes this.

    Better men than you have tried tactics far superior to the schoolyard bravado effort you’re providing reference your attempt to call out my true identity. I have my reasons, and they don’t involve the “courage and conviction” mind-set.

    Why don’t you take responsibility for your mistakes, instead of offering excuses and accusations? It’s just a thought.

  61. gordon howie
    September 29, 2010 at 4:36 pm

    Independent,
    If you are so certain you posess the truth, use your real name and stop hiding!!! Why not demostrate some courage of conviction?

  62. Independent
    September 29, 2010 at 10:18 am

    I apologize for the typos.

  63. Independent
    September 29, 2010 at 10:17 am

    Bob and Pastor Wayne,

    When Thomas Jefersondied it was his wish to have three things inscribed on his headstone, that which he was most proud of during his life’s work. One was the fact he wrote the Declaration of INdependence. One was the fact he wrote the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom (which became law) And the third was the fact he was the Father of the University of Virginia. It’s interesting to note that Jefferson forbode the teaching of theology at the University of Virginia. He was truly a remakable man, and anyone who attempts to re-write history and the intentions of Jefferson to separate religion from government as fundamentalist usually do, is not only doing themselves a disservice, they are undermining the very bedrock which grants them the freedom to practice their religion in the first place.

    • September 29, 2010 at 12:41 pm

      It’s also very interesting that Jefferson acknowledge the source of our rights as the Creator in our founding document, and declared a firm reliance on the providence of that Creator. He also acknowledged that “The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.”

      It’s also interesting that Jefferson attended church inside the U.S. Capitol building with regularity and sent the Marine Corps band to play music for the services there.

      He also said, “No government can flourish without religion.”

      Jefferson was a perplexing man at time,s but it remains abundantly clear that even he did not believe our government should be divorced of the Christian principles upon which it was founded.

  64. Independent
    September 28, 2010 at 10:02 pm

    Bob,

    The Founders would be no more inclined to side with you, for they have written volumes about the inherent evils of organized religion and state sanctinoed religious. But that’s moot, as is the personal religious beliefs of our Founders. They create a nation and installed strict and clear mechanisms requiring th esepartion of church and state.
    As Jesus preaches to you, worship in private, and love all men. At this point in your spiritual existence you are incapable of accomplishing even this simple task, yet you judge me for practicing religion differently than yourself, you wrongly believe your word is true with that of God’s, and mine is not.

    No offense Bob, but your opinion on the Treaty as expressed in your article is hopelessly mired in your fundamentalism and evangelical tendencies. I found it to be without merit, based soley on your religoius convictions and percieved persecution at the hands of mainstream America. No one is attempting to separate you from your beliefs. It’s not about you or your religoius group. It’s about preventing any religion from obtaining sanction over the other. The fact that you deliberatley twist the concise words of the authors, many of our Founders reveals your true intent, to bring the world in line with your particular brand of Christianity, which just so happens to be the “word of God,” as defined by, well you. And so it goes, around and around in your never ending circular reasoning and religious dogma.

    Thank God for our Founders, and all our leaders throughout our history as a nation who have preserved and strengthened the Establishment Clause. Alghough I believe Thomas Jefferson was a little harsh when he described the divinity of Christ as a fairy tale. He could have been a little more eloquent.

  65. Independent
    September 28, 2010 at 10:11 am

    Pastor Wayne,
    The other post was getting rather lengthy, so here’s a second one for your consideration. Here are more wirtings on the subgject of religion, by Benjamin Franklin.

    “As for Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any particular marks of his displeasure.”

    And here’s something by Thomas Jefferson on the same subject.

    Jefferson thoroughly agreed with Franklin on the corruptions the teachings of Jesus had undergone. “The metaphysical abstractions of Athanasius, and the maniacal ravings of Calvin, tinctured plentifully with the foggy dreams of Plato, have so loaded [Christianity] with absurdities and incomprehensibilities” that it was almost impossible to recapture “its native simplicity and purity.” Like Paine, Jefferson felt that the miracles claimed by the New Testament put an intolerable strain on credulity. “The day will come,” he predicted (wrongly, so far), “when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” The Revelation of St. John he dismissed as “the ravings of a maniac.”

    Jefferson edited his own version of the New Testament, “The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth,” in which he carefully deleted all the miraculous passages from the works of the Evangelists. He intended it, he said, as “a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” This was clearly a defense against his many enemies, who hoped to blacken his reputation by comparing him with the vile atheist Paine. His biographer Joseph Ellis is undoubtedly correct, though, in seeing disingenuousness here: “If [Jefferson] had been completely scrupulous, he would have described himself as a deist who admired the ethical teachings of Jesus as a man rather than as the son of God. (In modern-day parlance, he was a secular humanist.)” In short, not a Christian at all.

    “The three accomplishments Jefferson was proudest of — those that he requested be put on his tombstone — were the founding of the University of Virginia and the authorship of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The latter was a truly radical document that would eventually influence the separation of church and state in the U.S. Constitution; when it was passed by the Virginia legislature in 1786, Jefferson rejoiced that there was finally “freedom for the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammeden, the Hindu and infidel of every denomination” — note his respect, still unusual today, for the sensibilities of the “infidel.” The University of Virginia was notable among early-American seats of higher education in that it had no religious affiliation whatever. Jefferson even banned the teaching of theology at the school.”

    Like Jefferson, every recent President has understood the necessity of at least paying lip service to the piety of most American voters. All of our leaders, Democrat and Republican, have attended church, and have made very sure they are seen to do so. But there is a difference between offering this gesture of respect for majority beliefs and manipulating and pandering to the bigotry, prejudice and millennial fantasies of Christian extremists. Though for public consumption the Founding Fathers identified themselves as Christians, they were, at least by today’s standards, remarkably honest about their misgivings when it came to theological doctrine, and religion in general came very low on the list of their concerns and priorities — always excepting, that is, their determination to keep the new nation free from bondage to its rule.

    I think it’s very clear to mainstream America, as it was to our Founding Fathers, that anyone claiming they are doing God’s work through political actions, or that they’re particular brand of religion is more suited to Gods’ work than others, is not truely understanding the intentions of our Creator. All of God’s children, from all religions and walks of life must learn to live together in a world governed by tolerance, respect for one another’s religious convictions and the knowledge we are merely on different paths leading to the same destination.

  66. Independent
    September 28, 2010 at 9:56 am

    Pastor Wayne,
    There’s plenty of factual infromation inthe writings of our Founding Fathers indicating they fully intended the Establishment Clause to be the law of the land. The separation of church and state is truly what defines our religious freedoms in America. God doesn’t instruct us to be so narrow-minded as to believe we must interrput His word is the way you apply it to politics. Nor did our Founder’s think as you do.

    “In 1797 our government concluded a “Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary,” now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:

    “As the Government of the United States… is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

    This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate’s history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today.”

    “George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although neither took much interest in religious matters. Madison believed that “religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize.” He spoke of the “almost fifteen centuries” during which Christianity had been on trial: “What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” If Washington mentioned the Almighty in a public address, as he occasionally did, he was careful to refer to Him not as “God” but with some nondenominational moniker like “Great Author” or “Almighty Being.” It is interesting to note that the Father of our Country spoke no words of a religious nature on his deathbed, although fully aware that he was dying, and did not ask for a man of God to be present; his last act was to take his own pulse, the consummate gesture of a creature of the age of scientific rationalism.”

    “Here is Benjamin Franklin’s considered summary of his own beliefs, in response to a query by Ezra Stiles, the president of Yale. He wrote it just six weeks before his death at the age of 84.

    “Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the universe. That he governs it by his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.”

    • September 28, 2010 at 5:59 pm

      The Founders thought far more like Pastor Williams than they do to you. In fact, they would be appalled by by your twisted, anti-Christian “thinking.”

      The Treaty of Tripoli is actually a great illustration of what our founders really meant by the concept of separation of church and state–not a separation of our government from the Christian principles upon which it was founded, but rather the rejection of a theocracy, an official state church, an official state religion.

      You should pay close attention to a couple of key portions of the Treaty–one that secularists like yourself always try to ignore. For instance, “as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen” reveals that the United States, unlike most Muslim nations, is not a theocracy and thus has no religious quarrel with the Islamic nature of those other countries. This is further evidenced by the passage which says ” that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

      If you’d really like to learn something about this subject, I suggest you read this article I wrote some time ago: http://www.dakotavoice.com/2008/10/confusion-at-southdacola-over-treaty-of-tripoli/

      The founders never intended our government to be divorced from the Christian values that gave birth to it. That was the last thing they ever wanted.

      • Independent
        October 12, 2010 at 8:40 pm

        The Founders were Deists, and a combination of several other faiths, as well as Christians, and many were also Free Masons. To infer they founded our nation on two secular documents, yet intended us to be a “Christian nation,” is ludicrous. You really should stop distorting history, contorting it to fit your fundamentalist religious agenda.

        • Independent
          October 12, 2010 at 8:43 pm

          Also,
          Bob, you are not qualified to “teach” U.S. history to anyone. You may be qualified to teach Sunday school, but only in a fundamentalist church. You are far to extreme to teach children in a mainstream house of worship.

          • Ed Randazzo
            October 12, 2010 at 9:18 pm

            Your reliance on your sinful nature is quite impressive. You speak as though you are god when you are merely the puppet of the deceiver. Your judgment means nothing to me. It is the judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ that I trust and you would be well advised to follow Him.

          • Independent
            October 13, 2010 at 2:46 pm

            I speak only as a direct descendant of Abraham, not as God. You need not fear one of God’s chosen people, or label me with the creations of your mind. Read the Tanakh, there is no “deceiver,” or “devil,” or what ever it is you think you need to convince yourself and others the new testament is God’s word. The Tanakh is the one and only book of God’s glory.

          • Ed Randazzo
            October 13, 2010 at 6:37 pm

            The Holy Bible is the Word of God.

          • Independent
            October 14, 2010 at 9:04 pm

            Jesus was a Jew Ed. And he never claimed he was divine. Roughly 100 years after his death, the Gentiles began speaking in this manner, and eventually the Roman empire adopted Christianity as its state religion, and the Catholic Church was born. Your non-denominational “church” evolved from the Catholic Church, and it is not sanctioned by them. Yours is a new religion, devoid of tradition, history or divinity.

        • Ed Randazzo
          October 12, 2010 at 9:21 pm

          Ah….a favorite ploy of the deceiver. To distort and attempt to confuse and then to accuse the righteous of distortion. Give it up whatever your name is. Step out of the darkness into the light of the Lord Jesus Christ.

          • Independent
            October 13, 2010 at 2:41 pm

            It’s difficult for a Gentile to understand. Difficult but not impossible. Read the Tanakh and discard the rest, for it is not the word of God.

          • Ed Randazzo
            October 13, 2010 at 6:39 pm

            My what authoritarian brio. I think I will follow the Lord Jesus Christ and it He I will serve.

          • Independent
            October 15, 2010 at 9:50 am

            There is no “deceiver.” Only Ha-Satan, the Jewish word which Christians took than changed to “satan.” In reality Ha-satan is an angel who tests humanity, not some kind of “devil” conjured up to frighten people into worshipping a certain way.

  67. gordon howie
    September 26, 2010 at 8:24 am

    Thank you Pastor Wayne for your uncompormising defense of our God given liberties! You are a wonderful example for us all!!
    Gordon Howie
    Rapid City

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